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Published  by  the  Missions  of  the  Church  of  Jesus  Christ  of  Latter-day  Saints 
in  America 

BUREAU  OF  INFORMATION— Temple  Block,  Salt  Lake  City,  Utah. 
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HAWAIIAN  MISSION— P.  O.  Box  3228,  Honolulu,  Hawaii. 
MEXICAN  MISSION— 3531  Fort  Blvd.,  El  Paso,  Texas,  U.  S.  A. 
NORTHERN  STATES  MISSION— 2555  N.  Sawyer  Ave.,  Chicago,  111. 
NORTHCENTRAL  STATES  MISSION— 3044  Elliot,  Minneapolis,  Minn. 
NORTHWESTERN  STATES  MISSION— 264  E.  25th  St.,  Portland,  Ore. 
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Press  of  Zion's  Printing  and  Publishing  Company 
Independence,  Jackson  County,  Mo.,  U.  S.  A. 


A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION 

Upon  Religious  Matters 


Compiled  from  a  Work  Entitled  "Mr.  Durant  of 
Salt  Lake  City,"  by  Ben  E.  Rich 


This  pamphlet  is  written  in  the  form  of  a  conversational  dis- 
cussion, because  in  this  style  information  to  the  reader  can  be  con- 
veyed by  a  method  that  is  at  once  simple  and  agreeable. 

The  scene  of  this  narrative  is  a  small  town  in  the  southwest- 
ern part  of  Tennessee,  which  we  shall  call  Westminster.  In  this 
pretty  village  is  a  home  of  entertainment  for  strangers.  It  can 
scarcely  be  termed  a  hotel  as  it  partakes  largely  of  the  character 
of  a  private  residence  with  accommodations  for  a  limited  num- 
ber of  guests,  and  visitors  are  attracted  to  it  by  its  homelike 
characteristics.  A  planter  named  Marshall  was  the  proprietor  of 
the  premises,  which  was  known  as  Harmony  Place. 

At  the  particular  time  of  which  we  write  (Sept.,  189 — ),  the 
house  had  three  guests — a  lawyer  named  Brown,  who  had  se- 
lected Westminster  as  a  place  favorable  for  the  establishment  of 
the  practice  of  his  profession;  a  physician  named  Slocum,  who  had 
a  similar  intention,  and  a  clergyman  named  Fitzallen,  a  tourist 
who  was  traveling  in  the  pursuit  of  health  and  pleasure. 

At  this  time  another  visitor  made  his  appearance.  He  was 
an  attractive  looking  man,  aged  about  thirty,  with  genial  manners 
and  a  striking  clear  method  of  presenting  his  thoughts  in  the  course 
of  conversation.  This  was  Charles  Durant,  who  hailed  from  the 
West. 

The  evening  of  the  first  day  that  marked  the  stranger's 
advent  into  Westminster  saw  the  entire  personnel  of  Harmony 
Place  on  the  veranda. 

One  subject  after  another  was  taken  up,  discussed  and  dis- 
posed of,  or  at  least  laid  aside  to  give  way  to  some  other.  The  con- 
versation proceeded  from  point  to  point  until  the  topics  of  the 
quiet  gathering  assumed  more  the  aspect  of  an  intelligent  melange 


4  A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION 

than  anything  else.  Two  subjects  which  agitate  us  nationally 
and  sometimes  locally"more  than  any  other— politics  and  religion 
— had  so  far  escaped;  they  had  not,  however,  been  unthought  of, 
and  presently  the  latter  was  begun  by  the  minister  saying: 

"Representing  to  some  extent,  as  I  do,  the  church,  I  am 
pleased  to  be  able  to  state  that  in  the  matters  of  organization, 
discipline  and  places  of  worship,  America  is  thoroughly  Christian- 
ized." 

"I  partially  concur  with  you,"  said  the  lawyer,  "and  yet  I 
belong  to  no  church  at  all — do  not,  in  fact,  endorse  Christianity 
as  a  department  of  civilized  life. 

"Why,  how  is  this?"  said  Fitzallen,  "I  thought  nearly  every- 
body in  this  country  must  be  orthodox  to  some  extent,  at  least." 

"Not  so  with  me,  I  assure  you,"  the  other  replied,  "and  the 
strange  part  of  it  is,  that  my  views  are  the  result  of  investigation 
and  the  peculiar  explanations  of  those  who  make  religious  teach- 
ing their  calling.  Those  who  accept  the  creeds  which  are  supposed 
to  base  their  tenets  upon  the  Bible,  do  not,  it  appears  to  me,  live 
up  to  their  professions,  and  the  clergy — no  offense  intended — are 
more  addicted  to  money-getting  than  soul-saving." 

The  stranger  from  the  West  was  listening  to  all  this  with  the 
air  of  one  deeply  interested.  It  was  as  if  a  desired  opportunity 
had  come,  and  he  was  not  reluctant  about  replying  when  ques- 
tioned as  to  his  own  views.  It  came  when  the  churchman,  after 
announcing  his  determination  to  "labor"  with  the  infidel,  turned 
to  the  newcomer  and  said: 

"I  do  not  know  whether  you  will  be  for  or  against  me  in  this 
discussion,  but  as  you  come  from  what  we  of  the  East  are  prone 
to  regard  as  the  land  where  restraints  are*not  severe,  I  presume 
you  are  disposed  to  assist  him  rather  than*me." 

"Well,  gentlemen,"  said  Durant,  "this  topic  interests  me,  and 
while  I  and  my  opinions  are  unknown  to  you  all,  I  will,  if  agree- 
able to  you,  endeavor  to  throw  some  light  upon  the  subject.  I 
am  a  believer  in  religion  and  lay  claim  to  a  testimony  of  the  truth 
of  the  Gospel  of  Christ  from  a  divine  source,  and  yet  I  often  find 
myself  opposed  by  ministers." 

"I  cannot  imagine  why  this  should  be  the  case,"  said  Fitz- 
allen, "if  you  are,  as  you  state,  a  true  believer  in  Christ  and  have 
a  witness  of  him." 


A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION  5 

"If  you  will  permit  me  to  ask  a  few  questions  during  your 
conversation  with  Mr.  Brown,  I  may  be  able  to  take  a  general  part 
in  the  discussion,  provided,  however,  that  should  we  differ  upon 
any  point  it  will  be  in  a  friendly  manner." 

"Certainly,"  said  the  clergyman,  "I  am  sure  it  will  be  a 
pleasure  to  me  to  have  you  join  in  our  conversation,  and  I  do  not 
doubt  that  Mr.  Brown  and  the  other  gentlemen  feel  the  same  way." 

The  entire  party  expressed  approval  of  the  proposed  inter- 
change of  opinions. 

"Then,  Mr.  Brown,"  said  Fitzallen,  "what  particular  part 
of  the  Christian  faith  appears  to  you  as  being  the  most  difficult 
to   understand?" 

"I  confess  there  are  many.  However,  let  us  commence  with 
one  of  the  principles  of  your  belief.  I  will  refer  to  some  of  the 
literature  of  the  Church  of  England.  The  first  article  of  religion 
contained  in  the  Church  of  England  Prayer-Book  is:  There  is  but 
one  living  and  true  God,  everlasting;  without  body,  parts  or 
passions;  of  infinite  power,  wisdom  and  goodness;  the  maker  and 
preserver  of  all  things,  both  visible  and  invisible;  and  in  the  unity 
of  this  Godhead  there  are  three  persons  of  one  substance,  power 
and  eternity — the  Father,  Son,  and  the  Holy  Ghost/  According 
to  this,  then,  your  belief  is  that  the  Father,  Son  and  Holy  Ghost 
are  one  person,  without  body,  parts  or  passions." 

"You  have  certainly  Quoted  correctly  from  the  prayer-book; 
I  fail  to  see  anything  wrong  with  that.  What  fault  have  you  to 
find  with  it?" 

"I  cannot  form  a  conception  of  a  God  who  has  neither  body, 
parts  nor  passions.  So  far  as  the  Bible  is  concerned,  I  fail  to  see 
from  what  part  of  that  book  you  derive  such  a  conclusion." 

"Well,  Mr.  Brown,  using  your  own  language,  'so  far  as  the 
Bible  is  concerned/  let  us  do  as  Isaiah  commands,  'go  to  the  law 
and  the  testimony'  (Isaiah  viii:20)  and  I  will  soon  convince  you 
that  the  Bible  plainly  sets  forth  the  fact  that  the  Father  and  the 
Son  are  one.  In  fact,  Jesus  himself  declares  that  he  and  his 
Father  are  one.     (John  x:30.)    Is  this  not  true?" 

"Excuse  me,"  said  Durant,  "but  is  it  not  more  reasonable  for 
us  to  believe  that  he  meant  that  he  and  his  Father  are  united 
in  all  things  as  one  person? — not  that  they  are  actually  one  and  the 
samejdentity?" 


6  A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION 

"Certainly  not,"  said  the  reverend,  "our  Savior  meant  just 
what  he  said  when  he  declared  that  he  and  his  Father  were  one." 

"I  differ  from  you,"  said  the  stranger,  "for  he  also  asked  his 
Father  to  make  his  disciples  one,  even  as  he  and  the  Father  were 
one,  as  you  will  see  by  reference  to  John  xvii:20  and  21,  and  by 
your  argument  it  must  have  been  his  wish  for  those  disciples  to 
lose  their  separate  and  distinct  identities." 

"Stranger,"  said  Mr.  Brown,  "your  view  of  the  case,  I  must 
confess,   appears  reasonable." 

"Let  me  ask,"  said  the  preacher,  "did  not  Jesus  say,  'He  that 
hath  seen  me,  hath  seen  the  Father?'  "     (John  xiv:9.) 

"Yes,"  said  the  Westerner,  "for  as  Paul  says,  'He  was  in  the 
express  image  of  his  (Father's)  person'  (Heb.  i:3),  and  this 
being  the  case,  Jesus  might  well  give  them  to  understand  that 
when  they  had  seen  one  they  had  seen  the  other.  When  Jesus 
went  out  to  pray,  he  said,  '0  my  Father,  if  it  be  possible,  let  this 
cup  pass  from  me:  nevertheless,  not  as  I  will,  but  as  Thou  wilt.' 
(Matt.  xxvi:39.)  Now,  then,  to  whom  was  our  Savior  praying? 
Was  he  asking  a  favor  of  himself?" 

"Oh,  no;  he  was  then  praying  to  the  Holy  Spirit." 

"By  such  admission  you  have  separated  one  of  the  three  from 
Jesus,  for  in  the  beginning  you  declared  that  the  three  were  one; 
and  now  that  we  have  one  of  the  three  separated  from  the  others, 
let  us  see  if  we  can  separate  the  other  two.  In  order  to  do  this,  I 
refer  you  to  the  account  of  the  martyrdom  of  Stephen.  While 
being  stoned  to  death  he  looked  up  to  heaven  and  saw  the  glory  of 
God,  and  that  Jesus  was  standing  on  the  right  hand  of  God. 
(Acts  vii:55.)  Would  it  not  be  impossible  for  a  person  to  stand 
on  the  right  hand  of  himself?  In  further  proof  that  Jesus  is  a 
separate  person  from  the  Father  we  will  examine  the  account  of 
his  baptism.  On  coming  up  out  of  the  water,  what  was  it  that 
lighted  on  him  in  the  form  of  a  dove?"     (Matt.  iii:16.) 

"We  are  told  it  was  the  Spirit  of  God." 

"Exactly!  And  whose  voice  was  it  that  spoke  from  the  heav- 
ens, 'This  is  my  beloved  Son  in  whom  I  am  well  pleased!'  (Matt. 
iii:17. )  Now,  mind  you,  there  was  Jesus,  who  had  just  been  raised 
from  the  water,  being  one  person,  the  Holy  Ghost  which  descended 
from  above  and  rested  upon  him  in  the  form  of  a  dove,  making 
two  personages;  and  does  not  the  idea  strike  you  very  forcibly  that 


A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION  7 

the  voice  from  heaven  belonged  to  a  third  person?   And  then  again 
I  will  draw  your  attention  to — " 

The  churchman  was  getting  heated.  Said  he:  "These  are 
things  which  we  are  not  expected  to  understand;  and,  my  young 
friends,  I  would  advise  you  to  drop  such  foolish  ideas  for — " 

"Excuse  me.  Did  you  say  'foolish  ideas?'  Why,  my  dear  sir, 
we  are  told  in  the  Bible  that  'This  is  life  eternal,  that  they  might 
know  thee,  the  only  true  God,  and  Jesus  Christ,  whom  thou  hast 
sent/  (John  xvii:3. )  Therefore  it  should  be  our  first  duty  to  find 
out  the  character  and  being  of  God.  You  say  we  are  not  expected 
to  understand  these  things,  while  the  Bible  says  these  are  what  we 
must  understand  if  we  desire  eternal  life.  It  also  says  we  can 
understand  the  things  of  man  by  the  spirit  of  man,  but  to  com- 
prehend the  things  of  God  we  must  have  the  Spirit  of  God;  and 
as  you  profess  to  be  one  of  his  servants,  you  are  presumed  to  be 
in  possession  of  the  necessary  light  to  understand  the  true  and 
living  God,  also  Jesus  Christ  whom  he  sent.  You  say  God  has 
no  body;  did  our  Savior  have  one?  If  so,  then  his  Father  had  one, 
for  I  have  just  proved  by  the  words  of  Paul  that  Christ  was  in 
the  express  image  of  his  person.  (Heb.  i:3.)  Jesus  appeared  in 
the  midst  of  his  disciples  after  his  resurrection  with  a  body  of 
flesh  and  bones,  and  called  upon  his  disciples  to  satisfy  themselves 
on  this  point  by  touching  him;  'for/  says  he,  'a  spirit  hath  not 
flesh  and  bones  as  ye  see  me  have.'  (Luke  xxiv:39.)  Then  he 
called  for  something  to  eat  and  he  did  eat  (verses  42,  43),  and 
with  this  tangible  body  he  ascended  into  heaven  and  stood,  as 
Stephen  says,  on  the  right  hand  of  God.  (Acts  vii:55. )  Now  if  he 
has  no  body,  what  became  of  the  one  he  took  away  with  him?" 

"This  is  nonsense!  You  know  that  God  is  a  spirit,  and  I  think 
we  would  better  not  delve  too  deeply  into  matters  which  we  are 
not  permitted  to  comprehend. 

"Pray  listen  a  while  longer,  for  I  have  yet  more  to  say  in  re- 
gard to  what  you  call  nonsense,  although,  if  it  be  such,  I  must  in- 
sist that  it  is  Bible  nonsense.  You  say  God  is  a  spirit;  does  that 
prove  he  has  no  body?  We  are  also  told  we  must  worship  him 
in  spirit.  Am  I  to  understand  from  this  that  we  must  worship 
him  without  a  body?  Have  you  a  spirit?  Yes.  Have  you  also 
a  body?  Yes.  Were  you  made  in  the  image  of  God,  body  and 
spirit?    So  says  the  Bible.    Man  was  created  in  the  image  of  God, 


8  A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION 

(Gen.  i:26,  27.)  Then  God  has  a  body  and,  consequently,  must 
have  parts.  Moses  talked  with  him  face  to  face,  as  one  man  talks 
with  another  (Ex.  xxxiikll),  and  he  also  saw  his  back  parts.  He 
promised  (Num.  xii:8)  to  speak  with  Moses  mouth  to  mouth. 
We  are  told  in  the  fifth  chapter  of  Deuteronomy  that  he  has  a 
hand  and  arm.  The  Psalm  (cxxxix:16)  tells  us  he  has  eyes,  and 
Isaiah  (xxx:27)  says  he  has  lips  and  tongue.  John  describes  his 
head,  hair,  and  eyes.  (Rev.  i:14.)  And  as  for  passions,  we  are 
told  in  the  Bible  that  he  exercises  love  and  is  a  jealous  God. 
Are  these  not  parts  and  passions?  It  would  appear  that  all  who 
believe  in  the  Scriptures  must  conclude  that  they  are  parts  and 
passions,  and  that  the  Creator  is  a  God  after  whose  likeness  we 
are  made." 

"Well,  I  had  no  idea  when  I  commenced  this  conversation 
with  Mr.  Brown  that  I  was  to  find  such  an  antagonist  in  yourself. 
One  would  naturally  come  to  the  conclusion  that  you  have  made 
the  Bible  a  study." 

"I  have  as  a  Christian  studied  the  record;  in  fact,  at  a  very 
early  age  my  parents  required  me  to  commit  and  remember  a  very 
important  verse  in  that  good  old  book.  It  is  found  in  the  fifth 
chapter  of  the  Gospel  according  to  St.  John,  being  the  39th 
verse,  and  reads  as  follows:  'Search  the  Scriptures,  for  in  them  ye 
think  ye  have  eternal  life;  and  they  are  they  which  testify  of  me.'  " 

"That  is  proper,  but  I  must  again  warn  you  against  plung- 
ing into  mysteries  which  we  cannot  understand." 

"But  Peter  tells  us  that  'no  prophecy  of  the  Scripture  if  of  any 
private  interpretation'  (II  Peter  i:20),  and  these  are  the  things 
which  we  should  seek  for  information  upon;  for  lack  of  information 
by  the  ministers  upon  these  points  is,  to  a  great  extent,  the  cause 
of  many  persons  being  in  Mr.  Brown's  frame  of  mind  today." 

"If  your  assertion  be  correct,  perhaps  it  would  be  better  for 
me  to  withdraw  and  leave  Mr.  Brown  in  your  hands." 

"I  beg  your*  pardon,"  said  Durant,  "I  did  not  mean  to  offend 
you;  I  will  endeavor  to  be  more  careful  during  the  rest  of  the 
conversation." 

"We  will  resume  the  discussion  at  another  time.  Tonight  I 
only  intended  remaining  a  short  time,  having  an  important  en- 
gagement; so  if  you  will  excuse  me,  I  will  wish  you  all  good 
evening." 


A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION  9 

"Well,"  said  Mr.  Brown,  "things  have  taken  a  very  peculiar 
turn.  I  seem  to  be  out  of  the  contest.  I  have  heard  more  that 
appears  reasonable  from  you,  Mr.  Durant,  regarding  religion  than 
ever  before  in  my  life,  and  I  must  also  admit  that  if  my  early 
teaching  on  religious  matters  had  been  of  this  character,  I  believe 
I  would  have  been  a  Christian.  I  am  somewhat  familiar  with  the 
doctrines  of  different  Christian  societies,  and  from  the  way  you 
express  yourself  regarding  the  personality  of  God,  I  would  like 
very  much  to  hear  your  views  regarding  other  differences.  Do  you 
disagree  with  these  ministers  very  much  on  other  principles?" 

"I  am  afraid  the  difference  on  many  important  principles  is 
just  as  great  as  that  concerning  the  personality  of  God.  But  if 
you  really  desire  to  go  with  me  in  this  search  after  the  kingdom  of 
God,  and  the  others  are  willing,  I  assure  you  it  will  give  me  great 
pleasure." 

Unanimous  approval  was  expressed  at  once,  and  Mr.  Brown 
continued,   saying: 

"I  never  before  had  as  great  a  desire  in  this  direction,  and 
must  confess  that  my  curiosity  has  become  quite  aroused." 

"Then,"  said  Durant,  "We  will  take  King  James*  translation 
of  the  Scriptures  as  the  law-book,  and  'Seek  ye  first  the  kingdom 
of  God*  for  our  text;  and  if  we  should  discover  before  we  have 
finished  that  the  teachings  of  men  differ  greatly  from  the  teachings 
of  Christ,  I  will  be  somewhat  justified  in  saying  that  religionists 
have  'transgressed  the  laws,  changed  the  ordinance,  broken  the; 
everlasting  covenant/  "     (Isaiah  xxiv:5;  Jer.  ii:13.) 

"Very  well,"  said  Mr.  Brown,  "I  will  proceed,"  and  obtain- 
ing the  family  Bible  he  continued:  "And  should  your  assertions 
prove  correct,  it  would  account  for  the  increase  of  infidelity,  and 
it  might  also  cause  others  as  well  as  myself  to  stop  and  consider. 
Now,  then,  to  the  'law  and  testimony/  Give  me  the  chapter  and 
verse,  that  I  may  know  you  make  no  mistakes." 

The  doctor  then  for  the  first  time  took  part,  saying:  "I  am 
also  becoming  very  much  interested,  and  think  I  shall  join  you 
with  my  Bible.    Let  us  all  come  into  the  circle." 

"All  right,  we  will  examine  the  Gospel  of  Jesus  Christ  from 
the  Bible,  principle  by  principle.  In  order  to  have  a  clear  under- 
standing concerning  this,  it  will  be  necessary  for  us  to  go  back  to 
the  days  of  our  Father  Adam.    Through  the  transgression  of  our 


10  A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION 

first  parents,  death  came  upon  all  the  human  family,  and  mankind 
could  not  of  themselves  overcome  the  same  and  obtain  immor- 
tality. To  substantiate  this,  see  first,  second  and  third  chapters 
of  Genesis,  Romans  5th  chapter  and  12th  verse,  and  I  Corinthians 
15th  chapter  and  21st  and  22nd  verses.  But  in  order  that  they 
should  not  perish,  God  sent  his  Son  Jesus  Christ  into  the  world 
y  to  satisfy  this  broken  law  and  to  deliver  mankind  from  the  power 
of  death.  (John  iii:16;  Romans  v:8;  John  iv:9.)  And  as  all 
became  subject  to  death  by  Adam,  so  will  all  men  be  resurrected 
from  death  through  the  atonement  of  Christ  (I  Cor.  xv:20-23; 
Rom.  v:12-19),  and  will  stand  before  the  judgment  seat  of  God 
to  answer  for  their  own  sins  and  not  for  Adam's  transgression. 
(Acts  xvii:31;  Rev.  xx:12-15;  Matt.  xvi:27.)  Am  I  right  as  far 
as  I  have  gone?" 

"Yes,"  said  the  doctor,  "I  have  been  following  you  with  your 
quotations,  and  find  them  correct.    Proceed." 

"Then  I  have  proved  one  of  the  principles  of  some  of  the  so- 
called  Christians  incorrect,  for  they  do  not  believe  that  the  wicked 
will  have  the  same  chance  of  resurrection  as  the  righteous.  Jesus 
Christ  did  not  die  for  our  individual  sins,  except  on  condition  that 
we  conform  to  the  plan  he  marked  out,  which  will  bring  us  a 
remission  of  our  sins.  The  only  way  we  can  prove  that  we  love 
him  is  by  keeping  his  commandments  (John  xiv:15);  therefore, 
if  we  say  we  love  God  and  keep  not  his  commandments,  we  are 
liars  and  the  truth  is  not  in  us.  (I  John  ii:4.)  I  think  I  have 
proved  to  your  satisfaction  that  there  is  something  defective  in 
their  understanding  of  the  attributes  of  God,  and  I  think  I  can 
prove  also  that  they  do  not  keep  his  commandments.  Christ 
has  given  us  to  understand  two  things  which  you  must  remember 
while  on  this  search  after  the  'kingdom  of  God/  First,  that  we 
must  follow  him;  secondly,  that  when  he  left  his  disciples  he  was  to 
send  them  the  Comforter  that  would  lead  them  into  all  truth; 
therefore  we  must  follow  Christ  and  accept  all  the  principles  which 
were  taught  by  his  disciples  while  in  possession  of  the  Holy  Spirit, 
though  it  should  prove  the  whole  world  to  be  in  error." 

"Thus  far  your  arguments  are  reasonable,  also  in  accord- 
ance with  Holy  Writ;  and  as  there  is  no  other  name  given  us  except 
Jesus  Christ  whereby  we  can  be  saved  (Acts  iv:12),  you  may  now 


A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION  11 

lay  before  us  the  conditions;  but  give  us  chapter  and  verse,  as  I 
said  before,  that  we  may  know  you  speak  correctly." 

"We  will  now  examine  into  the  conditions;  but  first  remember 
that  God  does  not  send  men  into  the  world  for  the  purpose  of 
preaching  contrary  doctrines,  for  this  always  creates  confusion, 
and  God  is  not  the  author  of  confusion,  but  of  peace.  (I  Cor. 
xiv:33.)  Paul  has  said  if  any  man  teach  another  Gospel  let  him 
be  accursed.  (Gal.  i:8,  9.)  The  first  condition  is  this:  To  believe 
there  is  a  God  (not  the  kind  mentioned  in  the  English  prayer- 
book),  but  the  God  that  created  man  in  his  own  image,  and  to 
have  faith  in  that  God  and  in  Jesus  Christ  whom  he  has  sent." 

"Go  on,"  said  the  party  in  concert. 

"Well,"  continued  Durant,  "the  kind  of  faith  required  is  that 
which  will  enable  a  man,  under  all  circumstances,  to  say,  'I  am 
not  ashamed  of  the  Gospel  of  Christ;  for  it  is  the  power  of  God  unto 
salvation/  (Rom.  i:16.)  This  is  the  kind  of  faith  by  which  the 
worlds  were  framed;  by  which  Noah  prepared  an  ark;  by  which 
the  Red  Sea  was  crossed  as  on  dry  land;  by  which  the  walls  of 
Jericho  fell;  it  was  by  faith  that  kingdoms  were  subdued;  righteous- 
ness was  wrought;  promises  were  obtained,  and  the  mouths  of 
lions  were  closed.  (Heb.  xi:32,  38.)  This  faith  comes  by  hearing 
the  word  of  God  (Rom.  x:17),  and  the  lack  of  this  faith  and  the 
absence  of  prayer  and  fasting  caused  even  the  Apostles  to  fail  on 
one  occasion  in  casting  out  devils.  (Matt.  xvii:14,  20.)  No  won- 
der, then,  that  without  faith  it  is  impossible  to  please  God.  (Heb. 
xi:6. )  Faith,  then,  is  the  first  grand  stepping-stone  to  that  celes- 
tial pathway  leading  towards  salvation.  The  more  we  search 
into  eternal  truth,  the  more  we  discover  that  God  works  upon 
natural  principles.  All  the  requirements  which  he  makes  of  us 
are  very  plain  and  simple.  How  natural  that  the  principle  of 
faith  should  be  the  primary  one  of  our  salvation!  With  what 
principle  are  we  more  familiar?  Faith  is  the  first  great  principle 
governing  all  things;  but  great  as  it  is,  it  is  dead  without  works. 
(James  ii  :14-17. )  We  must  not  expect  salvation  by  simply  having 
faith  that  Jesus  is  the  Christ,  for  the  devils  in  purgatory  are  that 
far  advanced.  (James  ii:19.)  In  fact,  if  you  will  read  the  entire 
second  chapter  of  James  you  will  see  that  faith  without  works  is 
as  dead  and  helpless  as  the  body  after  the  spirit  has  departed 
from  it.    It  is  folly  to  think  of  gaining  exaltation  in  His  presence 


12  A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION 

unless  we  obey  the  .principles  he  advocated  (Matt,  vii),  for  no 
one  speaks  truthfully  by  saying  he  is  a  disciple  of  Christ  while 
not  observing  his  commandments.  (John  viii:31.)  In  fact, 
the  only  way  by  which  man  can  truthfully  say  he  loves  Jesus  Christ 
is  by  keeping  his  commandments.' '     (John  xiv:12-21.) 

"Is  it  not  recorded  in  Holy  Writ,"  said  the  doctor,  "that  if 
we  believe  in  the  Lord  Jesus  Christ  we  shall  be  saved?" 

"You  have  referred  to  the  words  used  by  Paul  and  Silas  to  the 
keeper  of  the  prison.  These  disciples  were  asked  by  this  jailer 
what  should  he  do  to  be  saved,  and  they  answered,  as  you  have 
quoted,  'Believe  on  the  Lord  Jesus  Christ  and  thou  shalt  be  saved, 
and  thy  house/  Then  the  disciples  immediately  laid  before  them 
those  principles  which  constitute  true  belief,  and  not  until  this 
man  and  his  house  had  embraced  the  principles  taught  by  those 
disciples  were  they  filled  with  true  belief  and  really  rejoiced.  (Acts 
xvi:31,  33.)  You  see  by  this  example  that  we  must  not  deceive 
ourselves  by  thinking  that  we  can  be  hearers  of  the  word  only  and 
not  doers."     (James  i:22,  23. ) 

"But,"  said  the  lawyer,  "here  is  a  passage  found  in  the  tenth 
chapter  of  Romans,  which,  in  my  opinion,  will  be  difficult  for  you 
to  explain.  The  passage  referred  to  reads  as  follows:  'If  thou 
shalt  confess  with  thy  mouth  the  Lord  Jesus,  and  shalt  believe  in 
thine  heart  that  God  hath  raised  him  from  the  dead,  thou  shalt 
be  saved/  Now,  then,  it  looks  to  me  as  if  salvation  is  here  prom- 
ised through  faith  alone.    How  do  you  explain  it?" 

"Very  easily.  Let  us  thoroughly  examine  this  passage  in  all 
its  different  phases.  In  the  first  place,  this  letter  was  written  by 
Paul  to  individuals  who  were  already  members  of  the  church. 
They  had  rendered  obedience  to  the  laws  of  salvation,  and  having 
complied  with  those  requirements  were  entitled  to  salvation,  pro- 
viding their  testimony  remained  within  them  like  a  living  spring; 
and  in  order  that  they  should  not  become  lukewarm,  Paul  ex- 
horted them  to  continue  bearing  testimony  of  the  divinity  of 
Christ,  and  not  let  their  hearts  lose  sight  of  the  fact  that  God  had 
raised  his  Son  from  the  dead,  and  inasmuch  as  they  kept  them- 
selves in  this  condition,  salvation  would  be  theirs.  This  is  the 
only  sensible  view  one  can  take  of  this  passage.  Unquestionably 
Paul  was  speaking  to  sincere  members  of  the  church,  who  had  been 


A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION  1* 

correctly  initiated  into  the  fold  of  Christ,  not  aliens  living  1800 
years    after." 

"That  appears  to  be  correct,  but  further  on  in  the  same  chap- 
ter, we  find  this  expression:  'For  whosoever  shall  call  upon  the 
name  of  the  Lord  shall  be  saved/  It  appears  to  me  here  that  refer- 
ence is  not  made  to  those  who  had  embraced  the  Gospel  and  those 
who  had  the  faith,  but  salvation  is  made  general  to  whomsoever 
shall  call  upon  the  name  of  the  Lord."     (Rom.  x:13.) 

"Exactly,  but  the  next  verse  gives  an  explanation  so  simple 
that  none  can  fail  to  understand  it:  'How,  then,  shall  they  call  on 
him  in  whom  they  have  not  believed?  and  how  shall  they  believe 
in  him  of  whom  they  have  not  heard,  and  how  shall  they  hear 
without  a  preacher?  So,  then,  faith  cometh  by  hearing,  and  hear- 
ing by  the  word  of  God/  In  other  words,  if  there  is  faith,  there 
have  been  works,  and  having  true  faith,  no  person  will  remain  in 
that  condition  without  complying  with  further  works  of  salvation 
to  which  that  faith  urges  him." 

"I  see,"  said  Brown,  the  other  remaining  silent  but  interested; 
"you  are  right." 

"Now,  then,  gentlemen,"  said  Durant,  "I  maintain,  as  before 
stated,  that  faith  is  the  first  principle  of  the  Gospel  leading  to 
salvation,  but  it  will  not  bring  us  to  the  summit  of  the  ladder — 
water — without  the  other  principles." 

"Well,  suppose  we  accept  this  as  the  first  round  in  the  ladder, 
where  will  we  find  the  second?" 

"The  second  follows,  just  as  naturally  as  the  second  step  fol- 
lows the  first  when  a  child  learns  to  walk.  When  faith  in  God  is 
once  created,  the  knowledge  that  we  have  at  some  time,  perhaps 
many  times  during  our  lives,  'done  things  displeasing  to  him,'  nat- 
urally follows  immediately,  therefore  repentance  makes  its  ap- 
pearance as  the  second  principle  of  the  Gospel.  When  John  came 
preaching  in  the  wilderness  as  the  forerunner  of  Christ,  his  mes- 
sage to  the  people  was,  'Repent  ye;  for  the  kingdom  of  heaven  is 
at  hand/  (Matt.  iii:2.)  When  Jesus  came  into  Galilee  preaching 
the  Gospel  of  the  kingdom  of  God,  it  was  with  a  message  calling 
them  to  repentance.  (Mark  i:15.)  When  he  chose  his  disciples 
ance.began*  sending  them  forth  it  was  to  call  mankind  to  repent- 
and       (Mark  vi:7-12.)     When  he  upbraided  the  cities  wherein 


14  A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION 

the  most  of  His  mighty  works  were  done,  it  was  because  they  re- 
pented not.  (Matt.  xi:20.)  True  repentance  is  that  which  will 
cause  him  who  stole  to  steal  no  more;  that  which  will  keep  corrupt 
communications  from  our  mouths;  that  which  will  cause  us  to  so 
conduct  our  walks  through  life  as  not  to  grieve  the  Spirit  of  God; 
that  which  will  cause  all  bitterness,  wrath,  anger,  and  evil  speak- 
ing to  be  put  away  from  us,  and  will  make  us  kind  one  to  another, 
tenderhearted  and  forgiving,  even  as  God  for  Christ's  sake  has 
forgiven  us.  (Ephesians  iv:28-32.)  When  he  who  has  committed 
a  sin  shall  commit  it  no  more,  then  he  has  repented  with  that 
Godly  sorrow  which  worketh  repentance  to  salvation,  and  not 
with  the  sorrow  of  the  world,  bringing  with  it  death.  (II  Cor. 
vii:10.)  When  a  sinner  thus  repents  more  joy  is  found  in  heaven 
than  over  ninety  and  nine  just  persons  who  need  no  repentance. 
(Luke  xv:7. )  This,  then,  is  the  second  round  in  the  Gospel  ladder 
according  to  the  plan  given  us  by  the  Master,  and  without  it, 
faith  is  of  no  substantial  benefit." 

"Your  reasoning  is  both  logical  and  just,"  said  Brown,  "and 
no  one  can  find  any  fault  with  those  doctrines.  This  world  of  ours 
would  certainly  be  more  pleasant  if  these  things  were  followed, 
and  when  a  person  is  filled  with  that  kind  of  faith,  and  has  truly 
repented,  it  must  be  clear  that  he  is  entitled  to  salvation." 

"But  he  must  not  stop  at  that,"  the  speaker  went  on;  "there 
are  other  principles  just  as  necessary  for  him  to  obey.  If  I  am  in 
possession  of  enough  faith  to  convince  me  that  I  have  sinned 
against  you,  and  the  knowledge  of  this  causes  me  sincerely  to 
repent,  I  must  not  and  cannot  rest  until  I  am  satisfied  I  have  your 
forgiveness  for  the  wrong.  So  it  is  with  sinning  against  God  and 
his  laws;  he  has  marked  out  the  path  of  repentance  and  it  is  our 
duty  to  follow  that  divine  way  until  we  arrive  at  the  sacred  altar 
of  forgiveness.  Sin  must  be  forgiven  before  it  can  be  wiped  oat, 
and  God  in  his  wisdom  selected  and  placed  in  his  church  water 
baptism  for  this  purpose.  It  is  a  means  whereby  a  man  can  receive 
remission   of  sin." 

"And  do  you  really  believe  that  baptism  brings  remission  of 
sin?"  queried  the  lawyer.  $ 

"Certainly;  provided,  however,  honest  faith  and  sincere 
repentance  go  before  it,  and  the  ordinance  is  administered  in  the 


A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION  15 

proper  way  by  one  endowed  with  divine  authority;  otherwise  I 
believe  it  is  of  no  avail  whatever." 

"It  seems  to  me  you  surround  the  principle  of  baptism  with 
more  safeguards  than  anyone  else  of  whom  I  have  ever  heard." 

"Perhaps  I  do,  and  yet  it  should  not  be  the  case.  Every  prin- 
ciple of  the  Gospel  should  be  well  and  carefully  protected,  and  the 
failure  on  the  part  of  man  to  do  this  is  the  main  cause  of  so  many 
different  so-called  plans  of  salvation  existing  among  us  today, 
when  there  should  be  only  one  true  and  perfect  plan,  as  found  in 
the  days  of  Christ." 

"It  does  seem  strange  that  there  should  be  so  many  roads 
leading,  as  is  claimed,  in  one  direction.  I  declare,  I  never  thought 
of  that  before." 

"Well,  we  will  try  to  cover  all  those  points  before  we  finish. 
Let  us  examine  this  principle.  Let  us  see  if  the  idea  of  water  bap- 
tism appears  reasonable.  The  Lord  has  wisely  and  kindly  selected 
this  form  of  ordinance  for  the  remission  of  sins.  It  was  with  this 
object  in  view  that  John  advocated  the  principle.  (Mark  i:4.) 
Peter  promised  it  on  the  day  of  Pentecost.  (Acts  ii:38.)  Saul 
also  received  aid  to  arise  and  have  his  sins  washed  away.  (Acts 
xxii:16.)  And  so  it  was  taught  by  different  disciples  as  a  means 
whereby  God  would  remit  sins." 

"And  as  you  have  already  stated,  there  are  various  modes  of 
baptism  among  various  sects.    What  is  your  method?" 

"The  only  correct  form  is  that  explained  in  the  Bible.  Bap- 
tism was  performed  anciently  by  immersion,  in  fact  no  other  mode 
was  thought  of  until  centuries  after  the  day  of  Christ.  The  word 
baptize  is  from  the  Greek  baptizo  or  bapto,  meaning  to  plunge  or  . 
immerse,  and  such  noted  writers  as  Polybius,  Strabo,  Dion  Cas- 
sius,  Mosheim,  Luther,  Calvin,  Bossuet,  Schaaf,  Baxter,  Jeremy 
Taylor,  Robinson,  and  others,  all  agree  that  with  the  ancients  im- 
mersion, and  no  other  form,  was  baptism.  The  holy  record  itself 
explains  the  mode  so  plainly  that  even  a  wayfaring  man  may  un- 
derstand. John  selected  a  certain  place  on  account  of  there  being 
much  water.  (John  iii:23.)  Christ  himself  was  baptized  in  a 
river,  after  which  he  came  up  out  of  the  water.  (Mark  i:5-10.) 
Both  Philip  and  the  eunuch  went  down  into  the  water  (Acts 
viii:38,  39),  and  Paul  likens  baptism  to  the  burial  and  resurrection  \ 


16  A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION 

of  Christ,  dying  from  sin,  buried  in  water,  and  resurrection  to  a 
new  life.  (Rom.  vi:3-5.)  Jesus  declares  that  a  man  must  be 
born  of  the  water  as  well  as  of  the  Spirit.  (John  iii:5. )  By  being 
immersed  we  are  born  of  the  water,  and  we  cannot  liken  baptism 
to  a  birth  when  performed  in  any  other  way.  How  mankind  can 
accept  any  other  form,  in  the  face  of  all  these  facts,  is  more  than 
I  can  account  for.  I  think  enough  has  been  said  to  show  that  I 
am  correct  in  my  views  regarding  the  object  and  mode  of  baptism, 
ao  now  let  us  inquire  who  are  proper  subjects." 

"Why,  all  who  have  souls  to  save,  I  suppose,"  said  the  doctor, 

"Yes,  providing  they  have  obeyed  the  two  principles  already 
mentioned;  that  is,  faitn  and  repentance;  for  Christ  commanded 
his  apostles  to  teach  before  baptizing.  (Matt.  xxviii:19,  20.) 
The  candidate  must  believe  before  he  can  be  baptized.  (Mark 
xvi:16.)  Before  Philip  baptized  the  people  of  Samaria  they  be- 
lieved the  Gospel  as  he  taught  it.  (Acts  viii:12. )  When  the  eunuch 
asked  for  baptism  at  the  hands  of  this  same  disciple,  Philip  an- 
swered: "If  thou  believest  with  all  thine  heart,  thou  mayest? 
(Acts  viii:37.)  All  persons,  then,  who  are  capable  of  understand- 
ing, are  fit  subjects  for  baptism  as  soon  as  they  believe  and  have 
repented.  None  are  exempt,  not  even  was  Cornelius,  who  was  so 
generous  that  a  report  of  his  good  deeds  reached  the  throne  of  God. 
His  prayers  were  so  mingled  with  faith  that  they  brought  down  an 
angel  from  heaven;  yet  through  baptism  alone  was  it  possible 
that  he  could  gain  membership  in  the  fold  of  Christ.  (Acts  x.) 
We  see,  then,  that  all,  except  little  children,  are  proper  subjects 
for  this  ordinance,  provided,  as  stated,  they  have  faith,  and  have 
truly  repented  of  their  sins." 

"And  do  you  claim  that  little  children  are  exempt?"  said  the 
doctor. 

"I  do;  baptism  for  the  remission  of  sins,  and  little  children, 
being  free  from  sin,  are  of  necessity  exempt." 

"I  do  not  see  how  you  make  that  doctrine  accord  with  the 
teachings  of  the  Bible.  Did  not  Jesus  say,  'Suffer  little  children 
to  come  unto  me?'  " 

"He  did,  but  instead  of  administering  the  ordinance  of  bap- 
tism to  them  he  took  them  in  His  arms  and  blessed  them,  de- 
claring at  the  same  time  that  they  were  pure  and  free  from  sin 


A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION  17 

like  unto  those  who  are  in  the  kingdom  of  heaven.  A  little  child 
is  free  from  sin,  is  pure  in  heart,  in  fact,  is  the  great  example  of 
goodness  which  Christ  points  out  for  us  to  follow.  (Mark  x:13- 
16. )  Baptism,  then,  is  for  people  who  are  old  enough  to  embrace 
it  intelligently,  not  for  children  who  cannot  understand  its  sig- 
nificance, and  who  already  belong  to  the  kingdom  of  heaven. 

"We  have  now  examined  three  of  the  fundamental  principles 
of  the  Gospel  of  salvation.  There  is  one  more  that  I  wish  to  touch 
upon,  after  which  we  will  discuss  a  subject  that  is  of  more  interest 
to  you,  perhaps,  than  any  of  these.  The  principle  which  I  now 
wish  to  speak  of  is  the  gift  of  the  Holy  Ghost,  which  in  olden 
times  always  followed  obedience  to  the  principles  we  have  dis- 
cussed, and  when  once  received  brought  with  it  some  of  the  gifts 
of  the  Holy  Spirit.  When  the  first  sermon  was  delivered  after  the 
crucifixion  of  Christ,  at  the  time  when  the  apostles  were  endowed 
with  power  from  on  high,  a  multitude  of  people  were  pricked  in 
their  hearts,  and  asked  Peter  and  the  rest  of  the  apostles  what  they 
should  do.  Peter  answered  this  all-important  question;  and  so 
far  as  authority  to  do  so  was  concerned,  we  must  admit  that  he, 
of  all  men  at  that  peculiar  time,  was  fully  capable,  for  he  was  in 
possession  of  the  keys  of  the  kingdom  of  God,  bestowed  upon  him 
by  Christ  himself.  He  was  the  senior  apostle,  and,  with  his 
brethren,  had  been  endowed  with  power  from  above.  Therefore* 
he,  more  than  any  minister  of  our  day,  occupied  a  place  that 
enabled  him  to  answer  correctly,  and  with  authority." 

"You  are  stating  the  case  properly,  but  what  did  he  tell 
them?"  queried  the  man  of  law. 

"His  answer  is  found  in  the  second  chapter  of  Acts,  beginning 
with  the  38th  verse.  You  will  observe  that  as  soon  as  he  dis- 
covered that  they  had  faith,  he  taught  them  repentance,  then 
baptism  for  the  remission  of  sins,  and  followed  these  doctrines 
with  a  promise  of  the  gift  of  the  Holy  Ghost." 

"Yes,  commencing  at  the  verse  mentioned,  it  says:  Then 
Peter  said  unto  them,  Repent  and  be  baptized  every  one  of  you 
in  the  name  of  Jesus  Christ  for  the  remission  of  sins,  and  ye  shall 
receive  the  gift  of  the  Holy  Ghost.  For  the  promise  is  unto  you, 
and  to  your  children,  and  to  all  that  are  afar  off,  even  as  many  as 
the  Lord  our  Go4  stall  call/  M 


18  A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION 

"But  how  were  they  to  receive  the  Holy  Ghost?" 

"By  the  laying  on  of  hands.  When  Peter  went  down  into 
Samaria  for  the  purpose  of  bestowing  this  gift  on  those  whom 
Philip  had  baptized,  he  did  it  by  the  laying  on  of  hands.  (Acts 
viii:17.)  Ananias  conferred  it  upon  Paul  in  the  same  manner. 
(Acts  ix  :17. )  And  Paul  did  the  same  in  the  case  of  those  who  were 
baptized  at  Ephesus  (Acts  xix:2-6);  and  when  people  received 
this  birth  of  the  Spirit  (John  iii:5 ),  they  also  received  the  promised 
blessings;  they  were  entitled  to  the  signs  which  he  promised  would 
follow,  for,  said  he,  *  These  signs  shall  follow  them  that  believe;  ! 
in  my  name  shall  they  cast  out  devils;  they  shall  speak  with  new 
tongues;  they  shall  take  up  serpents;  and  if  they  drink  any  deadly 
thing  it  shall  not  hurt  them;  they  shall  lay  hands  on  the  sick  and 
they  shall  recover.'  (Mark  xvi:17,  18. )  We  have  now  discovered 
the  conditions:  faith,  repentance,  baptism  for  the  remission  of  sins, 
and  the  laying  on  of  hands  for  the  reception  of  the  Holy  Ghost, 
with  the  promise  of  Christ  that  the  signs  shall  follow.' ' 

"You  must  remember,  my  friend,  that  the  signs  were  only 
given  in  order  to  establish  the  church  in  the  days  of  the  apostles; 
but  now  they  are  dispensed  with  and  no  longer  needed." 

"To  the  law  and  the  testimony,"  replied  Durant,  "and  give 
me  chapter  and  verse  to  substantiate  the  assertion  you  have  just 
made." 

"If  you  will  read  the  13th  chapter  of  1st  Corinthians,  you 
will  learn  that  'whether  there  be  prophecies  they  shall  fail,  and 
whether  there  be  tongues  they  shall  cease.'  " 

"If  you  will  take  pains  to  read  the  two  verses  following,  you 
will  see  that  'we  know  in  part,  and  we  prophesy  in  part.  But  when  • 
that  which  is  perfect  is  come,  then  that  which  is  in  part  shall 
be  done  away.'  My  friend,  instead  of  this  quotation  proving 
that  these  things  are  done  away,  it  establishes  the  assertion  that 
they  shall  remain  until  perfection  shall  come.  Surely  no  reason- 
able man  will  say  that  we  have  come  to  perfection." 

"I  have  understood  that  these  gifts  were  no  longer  needed. 
This  certainly  is  the  conclusion  that  the  ministers  of  the  day  have 
come  to." 

"But  this  is  not  surprising  to  me,  for  this  good  old  Bible  de- 
clares that  the  time  will  come  when  the  people  will  turn  from 
sound  doctrines  to  fables,"     (II  Tim,  iv;4.) 


A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION  19 

"I  must  admit  that  you  have  convinced  me  that  baptism  is  a 
necessity,  and  when  I  am  baptized,  the  ordinance  will  be  per- 
formed in  the  proper  manner,"  said  the  doctor. 

"I  am  pleased  to  learn  that,  but  I  may  have  another  surprise 
for  you  yet.    May  I  ask,  who  do  you  intend  shall  baptize  you?" 

"My  minister,  I  suppose;  why?" 

"If  the  words  of  the  Bible  be  true,  there  may  be  a  doubt  as 
to  whether  your  minister  is  authorized  to  baptize  you." 

"Do  you  mean  that  these  men,  ministers  of  the  Gospel,  have 
no  authority  to  officiate  in  that  ordinance?  I  wonder  what  you 
will  undertake  next,  but  proceed,  for  I  am  now  prepared  for  sur- 
prises." 

"I  assure  you,  my  dear  sir,  I  only  wish  to  refer  to  a  few  doc- 
trines from  the  Bible  which  are  necessary  to  be  understood  by  you 
in  order  that  you  may  obtain  eternal  life.  Thus  far  we  have  only 
examined  the  first  principles  of  the  Gospel,  but  now  we  will  speak 
of  the  officers  whom  Christ  placed  in  His  Church,  and  learn  by 
what  means  men  receive  authority  to  act  in  the  name  of  God.  Paul 
tells  us  that  God  has  placed  'first  apostles,  secondarily  prophets, 
thirdly  teachers,  after  which  gifts  of  healing/  etc.  (I  Cor.  xii:28), 
and  says  the  work  is  built  upon  the  foundation  of  apostles.  (Eph. 
ii:20.)  He  furthermore  declares  that  these  officers  have  been 
placed  in  the  Church  for  the  work  of  the  ministry,  and  will  remain 
Until  we  all  come  to  a  knowledge  of  the  truth.  (Eph.  iv:  11-13.) 
Have  all  mankind  come  to  a  knowledge  of  the  truth?  If  not, 
why  has  the  Church  dispensed  with  the  officers  that  God  placed 
in  it  for  the  purpose  of  bringing  all  to  a  unity  of  the  faith?  Paul 
tells  us  that  these  officers  were  placed  in  the  church  to  keep  us 
from  being  tossed  to  and  fro  and  carried  about  by  every  wind  of 
doctrine  which  is  taught  by  man.  (Eph.  iv :12-14. )  At  the  present 
time,  when  men  declare  that  they  have  no  need  of  apostles  or 
prophets,  they  are  divided,  and  subdivided,  and  in  fact  carried 
about  by  every  doctrine  that  is  promulgated — as  Paul  saw  that 
they  would  be,  if  inspired  apostles  and  prophets  were  not  found 
to  lead  them.  In  losing  these  officers,  the  Church  lost  her  author- 
ity, together  with  all  her  gifts  and  graces,  and  the  so-called  Chris- 
tian Churches  today  are  disrobed  of  all  her  beautiful  garments; 
and  even  those  who  pretend  to  defend  her  are  crying  out  that  her 


20  A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION 

gifts,  graces  and  ordinances  are  useless  in  this  age  of  the  world. 
Did  Christ  establish  the  true  order  or  did  he  not?  We  say  he 
did  and  would  ask,  has  any  man  a  right  to  change  it?  And  if  any 
man,  or  even  an  angel  from  heaven  should  alter  it  in  the  least, 
will  he  not  come  under  the  condemnation  that  Paul  uttered  when 
he  said:  'Though  we  or  an  angel  from  heaven  preach  any  other 
Gospel  unto  you  than  that  which  we  have  preached  unto  you,  let 
him  be  accursed?'  (Gal.  i:8.)  Christ  placed  these  officers  and 
the  ordinances  in  the  Church  for  the  perfecting  of  the  Saints; 
and  any  one  teaching  contrary  to  this  is  a  perverter  of  the  Gospel, 
and  an  anti-Christ  in  the  full  meaning  of  the  word.  The  differ- 
ence between  the  Church  of  Christ  on  the  one  hand  and  the 
Catholic  Church,  with  all  her  posterity  composing  the  whole 
Protestant  world  on  the  other  hand,  amounts  to  this:  One  had 
apostles,  prophets,  etc.,  who  led  the  church  by  inspiration  or  by 
divine  revelation;  while  the  others  have  learned  men  to  preach 
learned  men's  opinions;  have  colleges  to  teach  divinity,  instead 
of  the  Holy  Ghost;  instead  of  preaching  the  Gospel  without  hire, 
their  ministers  must  have  large  salaries  each  year,  and  they  are 
not  certain  of  the  doctrines  which  they  teach,  when  they  should 
be  in  possession  of  the  gift  of  knowledge,  prophecy  and  revelation. 
Now  then,  in  what  church  do  we  find  apostles  and  prophets?" 

The  doctor  replied,  "There  are  none;  but  you  must  remember 
there  must  be  a  preacher,  for  'how  shall  they  hear  without  a 
preacher?'  "     (Rom.  x:14.)  ♦ 

"And  in  the  next  verse  he  asks,  'how  shall  they  preach  ex- 
-  cept  they  be  sent?'  This  same  apostle  says  that  no  man  is  to  take 
the  honor  unto  himself,  but  he  that  is  called  of  God  as  was  Aaron. 
(Heb.  v:4. )  Aaron  was  called  by  revelation  (Ex.  iv:14-17 ) ;  hence 
we  see  that  no  man  is  to  preach  the  Gospel  except  he  be  called  by 
revelation  from  God.  As  I  said,  instead  of  men  being  called  by 
revelation — as  the  Bible  declares  they  should  be — in  our  day  they 
argue  that  God  has  not  revealed  himself  for  almost  eighteen  hun- 
dred years.  Go  and  ask  your  minister  if  he  has  been  called  by 
revelation,  and  he  will  tell  you  that  such  manifestations  are  not 
needed  now,  which  assertion  I  think  will  prove  to  you  that  he  has 
no  authority  to  baptize  for  the  remission  of  sins." 

"But  did  not  Jesus  say,  'Go  ye  into  all  the  world  and  preach 
the  Gospel?'  " 


A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION  21 

"He  did,  but  was  he  then  talking  to  modern  ministers? 
When  he  gave  his  apostles  authority  to  preach,  did  that  give 
all  men  who  feel  disposed  to  take  the  honor  unto  themselves  the 
same  authority?  He  gave  his  apostles  to  understand  that  they 
had  not  chosen  him  but  he  had  chosen  them  (John  xv:16); 
but  in  this  day  men  reverse  the  condition.  Then  again,  he  sent 
his  servants  into  the  world  to  preach  his  Gospel  without  purse 
or  scrip.  (Luke  x:4.)  Paul  says  his  reward  is  this,  That  when 
I  preach  the  Gospel  I  may  make  the  Gospel  of  Christ  without 
charge,  that  I  abuse  not  my  power  in  the  Gospel.'  (I  Cor.  ix: 
18.)  Now,  go  and  ask  your  minister  if  he  does  the  same,  and  I 
think  that  you  will  find  that  he  must  have  a  salary." 

"Then  what  has  become  of  the  Gospel?"  said  the  lawyer. 

"Paul  says  that  the  coming  of  Jesus  Christ  will  not  be,  save 
there  be  4a  falling  away'  (II  Thes.  ii:3),  and  that  'in  the  last  days 
perilous  times  shall  come.'  (II  Tim.  ii:l. )  People  'will  not  endure 
sound  doctrine/  but  will  'heap  to  themselves  teachers  having 
itching  ears,  and  shall  turn  from  the  truth  to  fables  (Tim.  iv:3,  4), 
and  will  have  a  form  of  godliness,  but  will  deny  the  power  thereof/ 
(II  Tim.  iii:5. )  Peter  also  says  these  false  teachers  will  make  mer- 
chandise of  the  souls  of  men.  (II  Peter  ii:l-3. )  They  are  doing  so 
by  demanding  a  salary  for  preparing  sermons  to  tickle  the  people's 
itching  ears.  Micah  iii :  1 1  says,  'The  heads  thereof  judge  for 
reward  and  the  priests  thereof  teach  for  hire,  and  the  prophets 
thereof  divine  for  money;  yet  will  they  lean  upon  the  Lord,  and 
say,  'Is  not  the  Lord  among  us?'  Now,  my  friends,  do  not  the 
different  sects  of  the  day  present  us  with  a  literal  fulfillment  of 
all  these  sayings?  Have  they  not  transgressed  the  laws,  changed 
the  ordinance  and  broken  the  everlasting  covenant?  (Isaiah 
xxiv:5. )  John  Wesley  in  his  94th  sermon,  referring  to  the  con- 
dition of  the  Church  after  it  had  departed  from  the  right  way  and 
lost  the  gifts,  says,  'The  real  cause  why  the  extraordinary  gifts 
of  the  Holy  Ghost  were  no  longer  to  be  found  in  the  Christian 
Church  was  because  the  Christians  were  turned  heathens  again 
and  had  only  a  dead  form  left.'  " 

"It  would  appear,  then,  that  God  has  forsaken  mankind  and 
left  us  without  any  hope,"  said  Mr.  Marshall. 

"No.  He  has  not;  but  this  falling  away  is  the  result  of  man- 
kind forsaking  God,  by  changing  His  Gospel  and  departing  from 


22  A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION 

its  teachings,  as  I  have  already  shown.  But  he  has  promised 
through  his  servants,  that  there  would  be  a  dispensation  when 
he  would  gather  together  all  things  in  Christ  (Eph.  i:10),  and 
would  restore  all  things  which  he  has  spoken  by  the  mouth  of  all 
his  holy  prophets  since  the  world  began.  (Acts  iii:20,  21.)  This 
dispensation  was  called  the  dispensation  of  the  fullness  of  times. 
(Eph.  i:10.)  Daniel,  who  received  by  revelation  the  interpreta- 
tion of  Nebuchadnezzar's  dream,  saw  what  would  take  place  in 
v.  later  times,  when  the  God  of  heaven  would  set  up  a  kingdom. 
(Dan.  ii:44.)  John,  the  revelator,  while  on  the  desolate  island, 
Patmos  (some  ninety  years  after  Christ),  saw  how  this  Gospel 
would  be  restored.  Namely,  that  an  angel  would  bring  it  from 
heaven  CRev.  xiv:6),  and  Christ  says  it  'shall  be  preached  in  all 
the  world  as  a  witness  unto  all  nations;  and  then  shall  the  end 
come/  (Matt.  xxiv:14.)  As  God  is  always  the  same,  and  has 
but  one  pian  for  the  redemption  of  the  human  family,  we  may  ex- 
pect to*  see  the  same  Gospel  with  like  promises  preached  in  a  sim- 
ilar way.  Where  do  we  find  it  as  it  existed  anciently?  But  as  it 
was  in  the  days  of  Noah,  so  shall  it  be  also  in  the  days  of  the  com- 
ing of  the  Son  of  Man.  (Matt.  xxiv:37;  Luke  xvii:26,  27. )  Noah 
was  sent  by  the  Lord  to  foretell  the  coming  of  the  flood,  but  the 
people  rejected  his  testimony;  in  fact,  whenever  God  has  revealed 
His  mind  and  will  to  man  in  days  gone  by,  the  world,  instead  of 
receiving  the  same,  have  rejected  the  message  and  said  all  manner 
of  evil  concerning  the  prophets,  and  in  many  instances  have  killed 
them,  as  was  the  case  with  Christ  himself.  Now  then,  my  friends, 
we  are  living  in  the  dispensation  of  the  fullness  of  times,  when  God 
is  gathering  together  all  things  in  Christ.  An  angel  has  come  from 
the  heavens  and  brought  the  everlasting  Gospel,  and  on  the  6th 
day  of  April,  1830,  God — through  revelation  to  man — organized 
the  Church  of  Jesus  Christ,  in  the  exact  pattern  of  the  true  Church, 
as  it  existed  in  the  days  of  Christ,  with  apostles  and  prophets, 
and  since  that  day  the  servants  of  God  have  been  traveling  through 
the  world  preaching  the  same,  as  a  witness  that  the  end  will  soon 
come.  They  call  upon  mankind  to  exercise  faith  in  God  our 
Eternal  Father,  and  in  his  Son  Jesus  Christ;  also  to  repent  of  and 
turn  from  their  sins,  and  be  baptized  by  one  who  has  been  called 
of  God  by  revelation,  and  receive  the  laying  on  of  hands  for  the 
bestowal  of  the  Holy  Ghost.    As  servants  of  God  they  then  prom- 


A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION  23 

ise  that  the  convert  shall  know  of  the  doctrine,  whether  it  be  of 
God  or  man  (John  vii:17 );  and,  furthermore,  that  the  signs  which 
followed  the  believers  in  the  days  of  the  ancient  apostles  will 
follow  the  believer  at  the  present  time,  for  the  same  cause  will 
always  produce  the  same  effect.  My  friends,  as  a  servant  of 
God,  I  call  upon  you  to  obey  these  principles  and  you  shall  have 
the  promised  blessings.  I  am  an  Elder  in  the  Church  of  Jesus 
Christ  of  Latter-day  Saints.  My  home  is  in  Salt  Lake  City, 
Utah." 

The  listeners  were  very  much  surprised,  but  those  who  read 
the  quotations  from  the  Bible  were  not  slow  to  inform  Mr.  Durant 
that  the  Good  Book  substantiated  his  argument.  Thanking  him 
for  the  patient  explanation  of  his  belief,  each  obtained  his  card 
containing  the  articles  of  faith  of  his  Church,  and  bidding  each 
other  good-night,  all  retired. 


CONCLUSION 

Kind  reader,  a  word  before  we  separate;  if  you  are  not  a  mem- 
ber of  what  is  commonly  called  the  Mormon  Church,  having  read 
the  foregoing  pages,  you  must  certainly  acknowledge  that  you 
know  more  concerning  its  doctrines,  from  a  "Mormon"  standpoint 
than  you  ever  knew  before. 

We  have  tried  to  present  to  you,  in  a  plain  and  very  simple 
manner,  some  of  the  first  principles  of  our  faith,  the  true  Gospel 
of  Jesus  Christ.  What  do  you  think  of  them?  Will  they,  or  will 
they  not,  stand  scrutiny?  It  is  left  with  you  to  answer,  and  as 
God  has  blessed  you  with  free  agency,  it  is  your  privilege  to  judge 
and  decide. 

Do  not  treat  these  doctrines  indifferently,  nor  carelessly 
throw  them  aside. 

Should  they  be  true,  the  message  is  of  the  utmost  importance 
to  you.  Surrounded  with  so  many  proofs,  the  faith  of  the  Latter- 
day  Saints  demands  your  further  investigation. 

Books,  tracts,  and  sermons,  in  great  numbers,  and  within 


24  A  FRIENDLY  DISCUSSION 

easy  reach,  are  at  your  command.  Read,  listen,  investigate! 
Thousands  have  done  so  before,  and  bear  testimony  to  having 
received  a  knowledge  of  the  divine  truth,  as  herein  presented. 

I  part  from  you  with  the  words  of  the  poet — 

"Know  this,  that  every  soul  is  free 
To  choose  his  life  and  what  he'll  be, 
For  this  eternal  truth  is  given, 
That  God  will  force  no  man  to  heaven. 

"He'll  call,  persuade,  direct  aright — 
Bless  him  with  wisdom,  love  and  light — 
In  nameless  ways  be  good  and  kind, 
But  never  force  the  human  mind. 

"Freedom  and  reason  make  us  men; 
Take  these  away,  what  are  we  then? 
Mere  animals,  and  just  as  well 
The  beasts  may  think  of  heaven  or  hell.,, 


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